I just stumbled across a post from last year on the Guardian's language learning blog. It's by a guy trying to learn Spanish using only Duolingo, and I thought his feedback was quite interesting.
The author Alan Haburchak, found himself struggling to internalise the grammar of Spanish as there is no conscious presentation of verb tables. I found similar problems using the course for German -- not with the verbs (I'd done most of the verb system via the Michel Thomas course already), but with the articles. The declension of the articles in German is more complex than verb conjugation, because there are so many sets of overlaps. There is no marking for gender for plural, but gender is marked in singular. The feminine declension matches the plural declension in 3 out of 4 cases. Masculine and neuter declensions match in genitive and dative, but not nominative and accusative... and the neuter nominative and accusative are the same as each other, but not the masculine ones. I'll stop now because I've probably lost you, and that's only half of it. And when you've finished with the definite articles, there's the indefinite ones too, and the adjective endings which are more complicated again. Certain patterns are shared, certain are distinct.
Trying to learn such a complex and arbitrary pattern from examples is, I think, pretty much impossible. So much information is obscured (not least of all the gender of the noun) that you cannot generalise. The end result is an ability to read fairly comfortably, but not to reproduce.
Since I started looking at tables myself, I've found the German course much easier, but still not trivial. Alan's doubt was about whether this was a general problem with "naturalistic" learning, or just his own habits formed through school language classes. I could (and maybe should) have the same doubt, but I just cannot fathom how anyone would intuit these patterns without some conscious knowledge to help them sort through the tangle.
23 February 2015
19 February 2015
Possessives and terminology
A couple of years ago, I wrote a post describing my objections to the traditional definitions of possessive adjectives and possessive pronouns. At the time, I still favoured calling what is called the possessive pronoun a "possessive adjective" (eg. "it is mine"), and calling the possessive adjective a "possessive pronoun" (eg "my car"0 for English... in theory.
However, practicality is another thing entirely, because there is nothing more confusing than using the same words as someone else to mean entirely the opposite thing, so I have never used the terms that way for students. In fact, I actively avoid using either term if I can possibly avoid it, as it doesn't seem helpful.
So recently I've been working on trying to find ways to better categorise grammar, and I've settled on what actually seems like a reasonable compromise.
For the possessive "adjective" of traditional grammar, I'm going with the alternative from the previous post -- the possessive determiner. It aligns with this, that, a and the, so it naturally falls into the class of determiners. This doesn't mean it isn't a pronominal form -- it actually means that forms like "John's" have to be considered determiners themselves... which is entirely logical, as "John's car" is "the car that belongs to John", but "John's" has replaced the definite article; hence "John's" must be a determiner anyway.
For the possessive "pronoun", I'm going with the possessive predicate. I decided on this when I was thinking about it as a predicative adjective in sentences like "It is mine," or "that's yours." Of course, that's not the only situation it occurs in, which is something I overlooked a little when blogging from the unbearable heat of Corsica in the summer. There is no predicate in "I'll give you mine," or "She didn't have hers, so she took yours." But at least it gets away from the counter-intuitive implication that the other form is not a pronoun.
I will continue to think about this, but if I do ever come up with a better term, I can just do a search-and-replace on what I've already got without any problems....
However, practicality is another thing entirely, because there is nothing more confusing than using the same words as someone else to mean entirely the opposite thing, so I have never used the terms that way for students. In fact, I actively avoid using either term if I can possibly avoid it, as it doesn't seem helpful.
So recently I've been working on trying to find ways to better categorise grammar, and I've settled on what actually seems like a reasonable compromise.
For the possessive "adjective" of traditional grammar, I'm going with the alternative from the previous post -- the possessive determiner. It aligns with this, that, a and the, so it naturally falls into the class of determiners. This doesn't mean it isn't a pronominal form -- it actually means that forms like "John's" have to be considered determiners themselves... which is entirely logical, as "John's car" is "the car that belongs to John", but "John's" has replaced the definite article; hence "John's" must be a determiner anyway.
For the possessive "pronoun", I'm going with the possessive predicate. I decided on this when I was thinking about it as a predicative adjective in sentences like "It is mine," or "that's yours." Of course, that's not the only situation it occurs in, which is something I overlooked a little when blogging from the unbearable heat of Corsica in the summer. There is no predicate in "I'll give you mine," or "She didn't have hers, so she took yours." But at least it gets away from the counter-intuitive implication that the other form is not a pronoun.
I will continue to think about this, but if I do ever come up with a better term, I can just do a search-and-replace on what I've already got without any problems....
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